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| Chords are really important |
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| adam |
 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ultraman_cosmo |
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| izuanhafez wrote: | | you're fast leaner la blindriff..and i like to add.. if we want to understand chord better (not memorize), we need to know scales first. If we know scales, its easy to understand why it is 7th, 9th, dominant bla bla bla.. |
u got a point here. more u understand the chord then u ill understand the scaling and vice versa. I not using the mode for scaling but i prefer to know the key. In the same time have to know where to stop and not to stop for deferent mode in a key.
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| IZZI |
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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adam.. aku pun tak paham huhuuu...
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| Raggy |
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| gapster wrote: | hmmm...i don't think modes are scale..
i think it is just the chord progressions..
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I'd disagree. Modes ARE scales,it's just that for every scale/mode there are a few chords that have the same notes...BUT the center-point is different as we play different modes of the same "parent" (my term) scale...e.g. in C Major scale ,
for the following Chord progression:
C - Dm - F - G7
D Dorian mode has the same notes as the "parent" ( C Major) scale, but when the chord is Dm, if you say you are going to "goreng" just the C Major scale, it means your centre-point in your improvisation is the C note...and it will sound funny if you're always highlighting the C note in a Dm chord because for the Dm chord the C note is the dominant7 , leading the chord to Dm7, but even in a Dm7 chord it is odd to highlight the Dominant7 note (it makes the sound too aggressive and takes away the sweetness of the minor chord) and so it is better to center the improvisation to the D note, and OK lah even though it is the same notes as C Major scale, when you center it aound the D note it does not sound like a Major scale at all, it has a unique "Dorian" feel, so that's why it is called a Dorian Mode.
If you really want to think in Modes, then you probably MUST think in terms of the center-points for each chord's scale you're playing, otherwise you're going to end up playing a whole pile of "scientific"-ally correct notes which don't mean a thing in terms of feel. The Modes are like a "formula" for 7 kinds of feel......helpful to get one started in creating melodys with pre-required "feel",
so e.g. you got a chord progression:
A A D D A A E E
now if you want to give it a "Bluesy: feel you choose the appropriate Aeolian modes
but if you want it to sound like children song you stick to Ionian
and if you want to go Jazzy or Swing you get into Mixolidian
and of course if you want to frighten you mother-in-law you just go Locrian 
alamak! I swore I wouldn't get into Modal Theory anymore........ 
Raggy
Last edited by Raggy on Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| IZZI |
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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hahah raggy.. thanks anyway mann.. very usefull..
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Last edited by IZZI on Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| strinq |
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Raggy wrote: | | gapster wrote: | hmmm...i don't think modes are scale..
i think it is just the chord progressions..
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I'd disagree. Modes ARE scales,it's just that for every scale/mode there are a few chords that have the same notes...BUT the center-point is different as we play different modes of the same "parent" (my term) scale...e.g. in C Major scale ,
for the following Chord progression:
C - Dm - F - G7
D Dorian mode has the same notes as the "parent" ( C Major) scale, but when the chord is Dm, if you say you are going to "goreng" just the C Major scale, it means your centre-point in your improvisation is the C note...and it will sound funny if you're always highlighting the C note in a Dm chord because for the Dm chord the C note is the dominant7 , leading the chord to Dm7, but even in a Dm7 chord it is odd to highlight the Dominant7 note (it makes the sound too aggressive and takes away the sweetness of the minor chord) and so it is better to center the improvisation to the D note, and OK lah even though it is the same notes as C Major scale, when you center it aound the D note it does not sound like a Major scale at all, it has a unique "Dorian" feel, so that's why it is called a Dorian Mode.
If you really want to think in Modes, then you probably MUST think in terms of the center-points for each chord's scale you're playing, otherwise you're going to end up playing a whole pile of "scientific"-ally correct notes which don't mean a thing in terms of feel. The Modes are like a "formula" for 7 kinds of feel......helpful to get one started in creating melodys with pre-required "feel",
so e.g. you got a chord progression:
A A D D A A E E
now if you want to give it a "Bluesy: feel you choose the appropriate Aeolian modes
but if you want it to sound like children song you stick to Ionian
and if you want to go Jazzy or Swing you get into Mixolidian
and of course if you want to frighten you mother-in-law you just go Locrian
alamak! I swore I wouldn't get into Modal Theory anymore........
Raggy |
yup yup
right on target
so basically in a Cmajor key, u can play any mode scale
Ionian, Dorian etc etc
so the Modal scale u play will actually influence how the solos sounds like (like what raggy said)
Modal chords progression is a different thing (a little)
Like Dorians would give u a Bluesy/Funky sound, Lydian is a little jazzy etc
(haha, had to dig through my notes to remember all of this)
but for now i'm just sticking to major/minor scales (abit of blues) cuz i am concentrating on my technique (haha, to me, wats the use of all the knowledge when u cant play tight, just my opinion lah) |
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| gapster |
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Raggy wrote: |
I'd disagree. Modes ARE scales,it's just that for every scale/mode there are a few chords that have the same notes...BUT the center-point is different as we play different modes of the same "parent" (my term) scale...e.g. in C Major scale ,
for the following Chord progression:
C - Dm - F - G7
D Dorian mode has the same notes as the "parent" ( C Major) scale, but when the chord is Dm, if you say you are going to "goreng" just the C Major scale, it means your centre-point in your improvisation is the C note...and it will sound funny if you're always highlighting the C note in a Dm chord because for the Dm chord the C note is the dominant7 , leading the chord to Dm7, but even in a Dm7 chord it is odd to highlight the Dominant7 note (it makes the sound too aggressive and takes away the sweetness of the minor chord) and so it is better to center the improvisation to the D note, and OK lah even though it is the same notes as C Major scale, when you center it aound the D note it does not sound like a Major scale at all, it has a unique "Dorian" feel, so that's why it is called a Dorian Mode.
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so basically what you are saying is
C-Dm-F-G7
when the chord reaches Dm ..
the note that will give a suitable dorian mode to it = D
so i play a "D" when it is the 1st count on the Dm izit?correct me if i am wrong
how about if i want to have a phrygian feel on C-Dm-F-G7
how would it be?do i need to change the chord progression?
can all 7 modes (like u said..played as scales ) fit 1 same chord progression?
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| blindriff |
| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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I believe that the modes will be shifted from one into another as the chord is in progress simultanously.
For example as chord flows from C go to Em To F to G
same goes to the mode it change from on to another... sync with the chords.... right? |
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| Raggy |
| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
so basically what you are saying is
C-Dm-F-G7
when the chord reaches Dm ..
the note that will give a suitable dorian mode to it = D
so i play a "D" when it is the 1st count on the Dm izit?correct me if i am wrong
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on that Dm, you don't need to play a D note on the 1st count, (but if you do it makes it easy) but you need to sort of emphasise the D as you improvise in the Dm measure.....you can do this subtly or aggressively, as long as you keep "suggesting" the D note, it will centre to the D and sound Dorian.
| Quote: |
how about if i want to have a phrygian feel on C-Dm-F-G7
how would it be?do i need to change the chord progression?
can all 7 modes (like u said..played as scales ) fit 1 same chord progression?
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using all 7 Modes in one chord progression might give you a serious headache, dude! not to mention seasickness and pregnancy symptoms
I don't think you can just use any of the 7 modes for any/every chord progression...there are some Modes that work well over certain chords/progressions, and some that just don't fit certain chords/progressions.
What I seem to be understanding through all the pening kepala sessions analysing modes is that
1. there are Major-scale modes and minor-scale modes
2. there are of course Major Chords and Minor Chords
3. If you play a Major Mode over a Minor Chord, it may clash (and vice-versa playing Minor Mode over a Major chord) but sometimes if you play this tastefully you can get away with it, e.g. using an appropriate Aeolian mode in rock/blues over a major chord.
4. but the more "exotic" a chord (say Bm7b5), then there are so many more things to pay attention to prevent using a Mode that will clash [if the blaady chord got m7b5, then how you going to solo and play the 3rd, maj7, or 5th note of the chord's scale....if you hit any of those notes surely you'll be clashing with the chord]
5. the less exotic/specific chords (simple C or A or any power-chord) are built from just 3 notes (2 notes for power chord) and so you can choose more Modes to play over them because the chord notes hardly clash with the notes in the mode's scale
6. Each chord in a song has a certain reason for being there, it's already trying to give a certain "feel".....so if you play a mode over the chord, your Mode's "feel" has to match the feel of the chord for that part of the song.....everything has to start with "feel"ing. (like sex )
but let's say you got the C-Dm-F-G7 progression, and you want a Phrygian feel.....I think if you analyse the Phrygian Mode you'll realize it is a "minor" Mode (Ionian, Lydian are the "Major-scale type" modes, Mixolidian is a Dominant-major mode (cos it got a b7 not maj7 note), the other 4 are "minor")..... so anyway I suppose you can experiment and find out if any Phrygian mode(s) can sound nice over the progression, chances are you'll just be playing notes off the E Phrygian scale, and then realize you don't have a single blaady Em chord in the progression!
But if you put a Cb9sus chord in to the progression, then suddenly you find that you could play a C Phrygian scale over this chord! b9sus chord is sometimes known as a Phrygian chord.
anyway, Phrygian Mode is one of the more difficult modes, the scale is constructed from notes 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 so you are really in trouble finding chords that will fit it. it's more used by Jazz masters I would think.
ohhhhhh, the headache, the headache!!!!!!!
anyway,for me, I just try to know the basic theory behind the modes, but I really don't want to think of them, prefer to just think around chord-construction ideas and practise to improve my technique.....no point understanding all this theory shit and still playing like shit!
now where's my Guinness.......
err, i hope what I am saying is not too far wrong.....anyone pls correct me if I'm wrong.
Raggy |
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| blindriff |
| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: |
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I think i want to ask about the progression chord.
as u all know in a Key regularly use 7 chords no matter major or minor scale. For example in A minor scale we have :
Am
Bdim
C
Dm
E7
F and
G
some songs that we find the use more than that chords in the Aminor key in their prgoression, let us discuss about it. |
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| gapster |
| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 15 Mar 2005
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yo raggy
so C-Dm-F-G7
dorian mode : my scale - D , E ,F , G ,A , B ,C
emphasize on note - D
thats all rite?
lolz..you sure anot..i expect it to be harder
anyway..can you give some chord progressions with mode scale for each mode scale? thanks
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| Raggy |
| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| gapster wrote: | yo raggy
so C-Dm-F-G7
dorian mode : my scale - D , E ,F , G ,A , B ,C
emphasize on note - D
thats all rite?
lolz..you sure anot..i expect it to be harder
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hahahahaha too easy, isn't it???? but it's true, it's just that easy!
so now with your scale above, you are playing D Dorian scale, which is very suitable for when the chord progression has reached the Dm chord.
When the progression is in the C chord, then you just centre to the C note and you'll be playing the C Ionian, appropriate for the C major chord.
Now, if you just remember the fretboard positions of this scale as you play it (like the pattern of a "box" of notes), .....then if youwanted to play a E dorian scale, you just shift your fingers up 2 frets and keep the same pattern, and you're playing the E Dorian, right?.... etc etc for any other Dorian.... so everytime your song reaches a minor chord, you can play your Dorian pattern in the appropriate fret, and give your Dorian feel, yes, it is that easy!
The hard part (that's why I gave up trying to think of Modes when playing) is that for some parts of a song you may have to use one Mode, other parts another mode, depending on the chords,and then you find yourself thinking so much about the technical aspects that you forget that playing music is about enjoyment. Also, the really good melodys often use notes which are "outside" the mode, and if you're playing by formulas and patterns you're not really relaxed enough to be truly creative. So I just sometimes play a certain Mode over just one chord until I feel the "mood" of the Mode, then forget about it and see where I can take it in the song.
Maybe that's why I remain stupid and can't play jazz. Just too much going on in there and I can't feel it all. But also, I hear a lot of jazz musicians who are just going round and round playing a million notes and a million chords, all very impressive, but after 30 minutes, it's becoming boring. But of course the real jazz masters, the really know it all and have already mastered all their modes and scales and can play it all because they don't need to think about it anymore, it's already in their jiwa. tapi aku sampai mati pun tak boleh sampai ke tahap tu so just surrender lah and play some simple stuff. |
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| gapster |
| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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^lolz
next time if anybody ask me about modes..i just tell them its like normal sh*t lar..
play the notes in the chord when it reaches it ..marty friedman style lolz
which you guys think is a better option?
getting the techniques right then the complicated theory or complicated theory first than technique?
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| Raggy |
| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| gapster wrote: |
which you guys think is a better option?
getting the techniques right then the complicated theory or complicated theory first than technique? |
I strongly believe that every guitarist must learn simple chord theory right from the beginning, this will give a strong musicality to the playing (even playing solos well requires understanding of chords).
Since all explanations in music use the intervals in the Major Scale as their basis, so knowing how to play the Major Scale is the 1st mandatory thing to learn. One must be able to work out the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 notes in the major scale of any key, no need to memorize, as long as you can find the notes on your guitar on your own.
Next, learning Chord Spellings is another must
e.g.
major chord = notes 1,3,5
minor chord = notes 1,b3,5
maj7 = 1,3,5,7
min7 = 1,b3, 5,7
the chord spellings must be memorized, so that, say someone tells you the next chord is a diminished....you immediately know that there is b3,b5,bb7 in case you are soloing you make sure you don't hit the 3,5,7 notes.
the rest of the theory like modes can wait. but basic chord theory is really important. If you got 2 hours a day to practice the guitar, spend 30 minutes on Theory and 1 hour on technique...the other 30 minutes, just put on CDs of songs that you like and jam along and try to learn what the guitarist there is doing.....err, actually 2 hours not enough.... kekekekeke |
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| blindriff |
| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:57 am Post subject: |
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i want to know... i play this kindof song. with the key of E minor. in some part the progression is F#( i m still not sure wheather its F#major, minor, diminished o what)
as natural scale is E, F#, G, A, B, C and D. but in this song when the progression chord is in that F# the scale is F#, G, Bb, B C#, Eb and E
as i check it was not harmonic scale, neither melodic scale. also not diminished.
my question is, what scale is that?
what is the chord for that F#? |
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