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| Ridzi |
 Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Polyrhythms and meter layering |
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Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 2198
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
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| Bode wrote: | | Well..this thread dont have to be strictly on soloing..any theory and skill related thing can be covered kan? Ridzi...Polyrhythms and meter layering...yang ni ko kene ajar aku...aku tak paham sangat la...and anything to make rhythm playing to sound tight... |
Hmnnn boleh kot... heh... sapa2 yang ade soalan...aju kan sahaja kepada I ni (dengan nada adik2) okey?
Jangan malu2 ye??
/ridzi |
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| suicide-by-overdrive |
| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Polyrhythms and meter layering |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Petaling Jaya/TTDI Kuala Lumpur
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| Ridzi wrote: |
Hmnnn boleh kot... heh... sapa2 yang ade soalan...aju kan sahaja kepada I ni (dengan nada adik2) okey?
Jangan malu2 ye??
/ridzi |
Bro,
Do you think u can share some of ur drum tracks for polyrhythm guitar style ??I wud like to groove over those beats. Tak bleh tahan la dengarr...nak programme dlm sequencer beat camtu tak pandai pulak.
What i did normally.....pinjam midi sequencing org lain or midi drum presets/patterns.....and then......copy/paste/edit.
Maybe u can teach us how to programme drum tracks someday??  |
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| Ridzi |
| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 2198
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
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Ok here is a basic polyrhythm where I am layering/superimposing 2 meters. 4/4 on top of 3/4
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1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3
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the top line represents the 4/4 meter and the bottom represents the 3/4 meter.
you have 3 bars of 4/4
you have 4 bars of 3/4
This is the most basic polyrhythm i know. Its called a polyrhythm because it has more that two rhythms going on in one song. Listen to Zappa, and you find that his music sometimes macam lari timing. Some people find it hard to make sense of this, but once mastered its all easy.
how do I apply this to me music??
easy...usually i start by deciding what kind of 'feel' i want. I have 3 'feels' that i generally use
a) a song with a 4/4 meter feel
b) a song with a 3/4 meter feel
c) a song with a crazy-ass meter that i just pull out my ass. (this one is fun to make but a bitch to master)
4/4 feel
I will explain this to you by giving an example.
ok in 4 bars of 4/4 how many sixteeth notes do you get??
64 sixteenth notes right?
ok say I have a piece of music that runs for 4 bars. What I do is divide it into odd phrases ini la yang menyebabkan aku dapat tulis breaking riffs yang deadzid cakap tu
for example:
15/16 + 15/16 + 4/16 + 15/16 + 15/16 = 64/16 = 4/4
you can mix sixteenth notes with eighth, 4th or half notes...ikut sesedap rasa...aku pakai 16th notes sahaja utk memudahkan korang faham, sebenarnya takde set rule dalam nak pakai polyrhythym ni, tapi kalau korang tulis lagu dengan terlampau banyak 'disjointed' riffs nanti pendengar rasa buhsan plak...tu sebab selalunya aku limitkan ...sebab I always want to keep the 'groove'...baru best moshing...main guitar pun rasa macam nak naik hantu...hehehehe
tapi kalau ko buat dalam sixteenth note maknanya ko kena main macam neraka la kalau lagu tu temponye laju....
sampai sini buat kali ni... any soalan so far??
/ridzi |
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| Bode |
| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 2033
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| omarjamaludin |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 2615
Location: Tmn Melawati
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heloo metalheads...
sila dgr kan lah lagu blues aku baru upload ni...tetiba terasa blues plak (pasal awek la) malam ni so aku improvise goreng on this blues rhythm yg aku rekod few days back...anyway aku improvise guna blues scale which is the minor pentatonic with a flatted fifth..err later aku akan explain lagi..so sila la dgr ..kalau kekadang goreng nampak mcm tak properly rehearsed it is because it is totally improvised on the spot ..
hmm maybe i should upload just the rhythm section and let you guys add your own solo after we got done with blues scale discussion later on..
oklah ..byebye
http://www.i-bands.net/audiovault/bands/176/
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| suicide-by-overdrive |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Petaling Jaya/TTDI Kuala Lumpur
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omar,
ohhh sungguh bluesy nya ko main gitar.BEST! |
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| omarjamaludin |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 2615
Location: Tmn Melawati
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hahaha...ada jugak orang dgr lagu blues jiwang karat aku nih..
anyway they dont call me matblues for nothing..except well it's because aku ni blues as in suka mejiwang sorang2 masa skolah menengah..haha only here aku baru betul alami the real bluesss...oh yeah..blues is the shit..haw haw..
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| GryMlock |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 24 Nov 2003
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Location: Agombak Ago go!
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| suicide-by-overdrive |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
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Location: Petaling Jaya/TTDI Kuala Lumpur
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omar,
nie ader some blues stuff(kononnya la)hehe.. which i recorded last year.
Sorry la....mmg sloppy sgt main.Tapi tebalkan muka jek kasi org dengar.
Rasanya lepas ni nak main drop D jek la.haha..bila la nak pandai main gitar mcm bro bode.
so omar,... bila boleh kita teruskan class music??
http://www.i-bands.net/audiovault/bands/174/ |
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| omarjamaludin |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
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Location: Tmn Melawati
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class music? boleh boleh...
tajuk lesson hari ni..
phyrgian - evil spanish scale from satan ?
oklah la harap2 semua dah paham about major scale and the first two modes which are dorian and ionian..right now let's talk bout the third mode - phyrgian mode..it is really popular among metal guitarist ..metallica godsmack use this alot..it has that evil yet spanish flamenco kinda sound.. so back to our example of C major
C D E F G A B C
the phrygian mode would begin as the third degree of the major scale meaning in the case of C major , the third degree would get you the scale
E F G A B C D E ..
if you play this scale on top of rhythm progression in the key of C major it would sound just like C major ..not much difference..
BUT
play this scale ( E F G A B C D E ) on a chord progression in the key of Em , you'll get that spanish sounding scale that i've been talking about....
go ahead and experiment...and form your own metal band hehe...
and one more thing..since we started from the third degree of the major scale which has this structure:
W W H W W W H
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
with phrygian mode , we'll get this new scale structure (start from the 3rd degree):
H W W W H W W
and for example the E phyrgian mode that we derived just now should conform to this structure as illustrated below..
E H F W G W A W B H C W D W E
so you can use this to find the phyrgian mode scale in any key just by following the structure which makes up the phyrgian mode..
a case example .. let say somebody is jamming in the key of Gm ..so let say you want to goreng and show off some skills by doing G phyrgian mode soloing..so just apply the structure again as which will get you the G phyrgian mode..
G H Ab W Bb W C W D H Eb W F W G
G Ab Bb C D Eb F G will be your G phyrgian then...
have fun experimenting guys!
do the goreng kirk hammet juniors!
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| omarjamaludin |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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cett overdrive..
modest nya kata sloppy, sedap pe blues jam kau tuu..aku punya lagi sloppy since aku improvise jer he..
anyway blues is still da shit..haw haw..
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| GryMlock |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 3699
Location: Agombak Ago go!
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| suicide-by-overdrive |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Petaling Jaya/TTDI Kuala Lumpur
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| omarjamaludin wrote: | cett overdrive..
modest nya kata sloppy, sedap pe blues jam kau tuu..aku punya lagi sloppy since aku improvise jer he..
anyway blues is still da shit..haw haw.. |
Bukan nak modest atau apa,tapi mmg betul aku main sloppy omar.
sbb tu mintak bukak threads pasal 'soloing' nie.
aku harap ko tak give up ngan org yg lemah theory music cam aku nie(astaga..cam gay plak)haha
So,kalu ko ader byk free time kat US tu,tulis la byk2 lagi article kat thread nie.
So far,aku faham dgn jelas apa yg ko explain.
p/s:ko tak terpikir nak register subject "music production"/"sound-engine"
ke sebelum grad? |
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| x_hackerz |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:55 pm Post subject: Goreng!! |
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Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Klang, Selangor, MY
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omar.. ko punyer skill gitar mmg orait.. cuma yg lain2 tuh kureng sikit laa.. aku tau ko minat gitar lebih dari minat benda lain (dlm hal music laa.. tak termasuk makan)..
anyway, semoga ko akan terus mempertingkatkan ko punyer skill tuh..
bye!
-eddy-
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| Bode |
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:00 pm Post subject: [b]Scales – application to real life playing[/b] |
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Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 2033
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So now you have learnt all the scales. How do you apply them to real life? When I was learning the guitar I always ask myself, why is it when I’m using the exact same notes on the guitar, I still don’t sound right? Why doesn’t it sounds jazzy, latin, bluesy or whatever?
The trick to master scales is to memorise the SOUND and FEEL of the scale. Take the major scale or minor scale as an example, we are familiar with what it sounds like that we don’t have to memorise ‘shapes’ on the guitar to play these scales anymore(memorizing shape should be only at the starting point of learning, then the ‘ears’ should take over). So the same thing should apply when learning to apply these other ‘new’ scales that we have learnt.
To familiarize the scale, play the scale over and over again, all over the neck and listen to it’s unique qualities WITH RESPECT to the ROOT note/chord. Then after that, listen to how accomplished guitar players use it in order to get some good examples. A good way is to spend one hour(or even one day even) just playing the Dorian scale to gain familiarity. After doing this to all scales, you will be surprised that when somebody asks you to play the Phrygian scale, you can belt it out without having to resort to shapes or whatever, because you can already ‘feel’ the scale and play it from the ears.
What happens next? After mastering all these scales what you do when you solo is to NOT think of scales anymore! The song ‘Flying in a Blue Dream’ by Joe Satriani is a great example of usage of the Lydian scale. But when he was playing it, he wasn’t saying to himself “Oh…I wanna play a song in Lydian now…”. He just played from the heart and somehow the Lydian scale was what came out from his inspiration…and it worked beautifully….so haunting…
Just play from the heart and let that dictate your direction to unknown territories…jam with friends…be brave…make mistakes so that you know what sucks and what is brilliant(always record your jam sessions because you always subconsciously play something that you can never play again later, and that could be your ‘signature’ lick!). See, for years I have been looking for this so-called ‘Jazz’ scale to make me sound jazzy, but in the end I found out that there are no ‘magic jazz scales’…only those scales that we learnt. It is HOW the scales are used that makes it jazz or metal or latin or whatever. A jazz player playing a straight forward minor scale will still sound jazzy, while a metal player playing the same scale will sound metal. It is how the notes are played…how you bend it…the syncopations, the space, the phrasing, the vibrato, which contributes to the end result. In any styles of music, there are always a combination of scales being used at the same time(a bit of Phrygian thrown into a bluesy lick then swerving into a dorian run). It is HOW the notes of the scale are being played which dictates the style and genre of the music.How do we achieve that? LISTEN, LISTEN and LISTEN to your idols…don’t just limit to the guitar..listen to other instruments as well…that will help to break away from the clichéd licks. For instance, in ‘Shyboy’, some parts in the solo were inspired by saxophone runs rather than the guitar, and this, I hope will make me sound a bit different than another guitar player (I hope, but that doesn’t mean I have achieved it! Pray for me!).
Below I have uploaded a few examples from my recordings and studio sessions to further illustrate what I have been explaining above.
http://www.i-bands.net/audiovault/bands/54/music.php
Example 1. Click the link above to play this clip ‘SHRED-O-MANIA’. The last ascending arpeggio at the end of the solo start out as minor triad arpeggio, then going into the pentatonic/dorian mode with a bit of the chromatic scale thrown in at certain places. This is an example of using a combination of scales in a lick.
Now, let's go to this page:
http://www.i-bands.net/audiovault/bands/189/music.php
Example 2. Play the clip titled LatinMinor. The whole solo was played using the straight forward minor scale, but it still sounds latin-ish because of how the notes were played. When I was playing it, I wasn’t thinking at all about what scales to play…I just go with the flow and feel…
Blues
Blues is probably the hardest to play. Everybody can shred like anything, but not everybody can play the blues. Right, everybody can play the ‘blues scale’ but very few people can make the blues scale sounds ‘blues’. Blues demands an absolute mastery of vibrato and bending…these have to be performed perfectly. And it would be good if you can do ‘wide string bends from hell’ that can really rip off your finger tips( hey, I know rock musicians see themselves as macho, but a lot of these so called macho rock dudes plays the vibrato like a pussy… you need to be man enough to play the blues!). Apart from that, it is the choice of notes, what to play, what not to play…and how you bend/slide into and out of the notes. Blues also utilises double stops, which means playing 2 notes together, and sometimes bending at least 1 or even both of these notes at the same time.
Example 3. Click BluesySolo on the same page. This lick sometimes uses the major third of the major scale, but in a minor mode to add to the bluesy feel. There are not that many notes in here, but there are ‘string bends from hell’, double stops and example of how bends, vibrato and phrasing adds to the bluesy feel…the notes alone doesn’t make it bluesy, but, the way that it was played.
Example 4. Click Fusion. This is a solo which combines rock stylings, blues, jazzy slants, the minor scale, chromatic scale and the diminished scale. Similarly , I wasn’t thinking of scales when I was playing this, but more of playing from the heart.
Example 5. Go to either one of these sites below and click the track titled 'Breeze'.
http://www.mp3.com.au/Bode'sNoiseBox/
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/bodesnoiseboxmusic.htm
This is to demonstrate that even when we are playing the straight forward minor scale, the way the notes are played makes it sound kinda jazzy. The only scales used in this solo was the minor scale and blues scale.Nothing fancy at all. This solo was improvised and recorded on the spot on the first take. It is part of the soundtrack of an upcoming movie called ‘Bintang Hati’. This song was lifted straight out of the movie without removing any of the movie sounds from it.
Ok…we will take a break for now. I hope that was in some way informative and useful to you. In the next part, we will talk about the specialty that is unique to hard rock/heavy metal guitarists of the 80's and separates these guitarists from the rest of the rock fraternity. Something that alternative, emo, punk and grunge don’t have…..SPEED… 
Last edited by Bode on Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:53 am; edited 2 times in total |
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