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| how to improvise and solo on top of a blues progression? |
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| omarjamaludin |
 Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: how to improvise and solo on top of a blues progression? |
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just want to get tips from all the pakar2 blues sifu here..
let's say for the sake of argument we have this progression
A7 D7 E7 ( I-IV-V typical blues progression lah)
how do you the get about on soloing on top of this chord progression?
do you just use let's say A minor Pentatonic (maybe with an addded flatted fifth for the 'blues' feel) all the way across A7 D7 E7?
Or do you sometime use a combination of Minor pentatonic and major pentatonic at different part of the progression? or some Dorian scale thrown in etc.. or maybe adhere strictly to some pentatonic box with some passing notes thrown in for good measure?
care to explain what's your startegy / methods? cos sometimes if I use let's say A minor pentatonic all the way it will feel/sound weird - maybe due to the note properties of flatted 7th in A7 D7 E7..
on the other hand, ada orang yg tak kisah pasal benda2 ni and just goreng ikut sesuka hati asal bunyi sedap - and also diaorang try tiru solo2 style famous blues gitarist yg lain SRV ke buddy guy etc etc and apply and modify to suit their own improvisation - would like to hear you view also if you're coming from this end of the guitar playing spectrum
well kita semua nak belajar di sini..so ada apa2 pendapat/tips sila lah kasi tau 
tenkiu! marilah kita share2 tips hehe
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| zaxx6o6 |
| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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using Mixolydian?  the pattern is 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
mixolydian got the feel of blues after all..
and im to noob to improvise so i only use modes.
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| Scumgrief |
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Raggy |
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Very good topic. Seems like a basic question but the answer is very deep.
imho most people playing the blues are NOT bluesmen, really,so they're just playing some scales and stuff that is aimed at impressing the listener with their skills and technique....so if you're a guitarist and you follow this type of guitarist, you'll also never be a bluesman 
Blues is from the soul. First and foremost, it has to be from your feeling,and express your soul.
So before you even learn how to improvise a solo, you got to learn how to play just one (ONE!) single note with feeling. 12-bar blues in A, hit an A note with feeling,and see if you can fit this note into the groove? If your REALLY try, you'll find it;s very difficult, and immediately you realize if you hit an A note on the 1st string it sounds different fromA on 3rd string, and different on different octaves and positions on the fretboard.....so which A to play,and how to play it to suit that particular 12-bar groove and still be able to express your feeling? This is your first problem
The next step is how to create a simple lick from that first note. Before you create that lick, you must have some feeling to express, otherwise it will sound like a Yamaha School Of Music lick No feeling to express? Then shutup and don't play the blues.
The scales you can use are a guide, but I believe the original bluesmen just played whatever felt appropriate, and later it was the "academic" musicians who analysed what they were playing and then tried to use theory to explain what was done....so it becomes like cooking rendang, your grandmother cooks like how it tastes right,but the recipie book tries to tell you how many grams of salt and how many grams of kunyit etc and if you follow the book you'll end up cooking like some science lab chemical
But if you really want to use the scales, then you need to analyze them in relation to the different "feels" expressed indifferent types of blues licks.
areas to focus on for beginners using scales-analyses: Take 2 differing guitarist styles and analyse at same session e.g. BB King and Clapton: analyse the difference is use of b3 note...why/when one person uses the "minor" b3 note a lot while the other uses the "major" 3 note even though both are playing blues in Major chords.
And then when you are more advanced, consider the diffrernce in a blues lick when climbing UP a scale and going DOWN....notice how certain notes are very nice for going up but sound terrible if you use them going down?
stuff like that. If you got to analyse,analyze from the perspective of feel and expression. That might help you stay in the world of Blues.
sorry i talk too long.....just some stupid opinions of mine anyway.
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| joe_labi |
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| radioflyer |
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 28 Sep 2005
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aku lagi lah tk paham amende ni..
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| omarjamaludin |
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Scumgrief wrote: | http://www.wholenote.com/default.asp?iTarget=http%3A//www.wholenote.com/cgi-bin/page_view.pl%3Fl%3D230
My guitar Instructor also added that we can combine both the A Major Pentatonic and A Blues to create a hybrid scale. |
sweet..i've played around with the combi b4..sounds great..
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| omarjamaludin |
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Raggy wrote: | Very good topic. Seems like a basic question but the answer is very deep.
imho most people playing the blues are NOT bluesmen, really,so they're just playing some scales and stuff that is aimed at impressing the listener with their skills and technique....so if you're a guitarist and you follow this type of guitarist, you'll also never be a bluesman
Blues is from the soul. First and foremost, it has to be from your feeling,and express your soul.
So before you even learn how to improvise a solo, you got to learn how to play just one (ONE!) single note with feeling. 12-bar blues in A, hit an A note with feeling,and see if you can fit this note into the groove? If your REALLY try, you'll find it;s very difficult, and immediately you realize if you hit an A note on the 1st string it sounds different fromA on 3rd string, and different on different octaves and positions on the fretboard.....so which A to play,and how to play it to suit that particular 12-bar groove and still be able to express your feeling? This is your first problem
The next step is how to create a simple lick from that first note. Before you create that lick, you must have some feeling to express, otherwise it will sound like a Yamaha School Of Music lick No feeling to express? Then shutup and don't play the blues.
The scales you can use are a guide, but I believe the original bluesmen just played whatever felt appropriate, and later it was the "academic" musicians who analysed what they were playing and then tried to use theory to explain what was done....so it becomes like cooking rendang, your grandmother cooks like how it tastes right,but the recipie book tries to tell you how many grams of salt and how many grams of kunyit etc and if you follow the book you'll end up cooking like some science lab chemical
But if you really want to use the scales, then you need to analyze them in relation to the different "feels" expressed indifferent types of blues licks.
areas to focus on for beginners using scales-analyses: Take 2 differing guitarist styles and analyse at same session e.g. BB King and Clapton: analyse the difference is use of b3 note...why/when one person uses the "minor" b3 note a lot while the other uses the "major" 3 note even though both are playing blues in Major chords.
And then when you are more advanced, consider the diffrernce in a blues lick when climbing UP a scale and going DOWN....notice how certain notes are very nice for going up but sound terrible if you use them going down?
stuff like that. If you got to analyse,analyze from the perspective of feel and expression. That might help you stay in the world of Blues.
sorry i talk too long.....just some stupid opinions of mine anyway. |
sweet raggy... that's a good explaination - yeah there's been debate what it takes to be a bluesman or sort..some says if you weren't born in cotton field then you're not blues either he he
well yeah but what we can do is emulate all these great guitarist and hopefully blend it into our own style ya...
yeah the note flatted 3rd it is something new to me so i'm figuring out how to play around it - will listen to more samples
all these while i'm just basically doin pentatonic minor with a flatted fifth all the way and as you've said - not much 'feel' there
appreciate the tips bro.. any other wanna contribute?
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| fReqZz |
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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ahh..
bro Izzi and zubira pakar ni.
But a tips from the pro. I was talking to sham last times about how to really play the blues.
Dia jawab senang je. Ko minat ape? ko dengar la lagu dia hari2 24/7. Bila ko dah mimpi lick2 dia dalam tidur. Baru start praktis lick tu dengan gitar.
It does make sense u know as blues is the "learn the rules, then break the rules" type of genre.
2 cent. 
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| IZZI |
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Hi otai2 semua,
Aku bukan lah blues expert sebab aku masih tergolong dalam player yg bergantung pada scale. Apa yg bro Raggy cakap tu memang betul tapi topik tu topik yg lebih tinggi dari advance. Soul memang penting tak kira kita main guitar, menyanyi, bercakap, snap gambar, menulis etc.. ia akan lebih memberi kesan.
Berbalik pada topik yg dibuka oleh otai Omar, apa yg aku buat biasanya ialah aku gabungkan beberapa pentatonic scale. Bila chord bertukar, scale tu pun bertukar sekali follow the current chord.
Sebagai contoh dalam blues progression A7-D7-E7, semasa dalam key A7, aku akan gabungkan A Pentatonic, C Pentatonic, D pentatonic dan G pentatonic. Aku tak main semua note tersebut cuma petik beberapa note saja. Kemudian bila chord bertukar ke D7, scale pun ikut bertukar D pentatonic, F pentatonic, G Pentatonic dan C pentatonic. Untuk key E7, semua scale pun bertukar ke E pentatonic, G pentatonic, A pentatonic dan D pentatonic. [ni ada satu contoh kat youtube => sini ]
Tapi cara ni lebih utk praktis scale dan mode dan untuk kepuasan dari segi teknikal. Kalau nak buat sesuatu yg lebih berkesan dan memberi makna, Raggy's statement should be applied. Zubira salah seorang advance player yg tegolong dalam non-technical player yg lebih bergantung pada feel dan soul.
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| radioflyer |
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 28 Sep 2005
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okay bro omar..
pada saya plak..
mmg tk tau langsong pasal chord2 tu sume.ape susun chord tu..
tapi,.bro izzi nye idea tu smart gk *kalo saya paham lah kn. de mcm satu mende yg bile kite stuck dlm SOUL tu dan dijadikan sebagai selingan2 dlm SOUL tu.but! bro raggy mmg rite! kene ade SOUL lah mende2 camni..
mcm ..hit satu not tapi..kaki kiri mengigil2, kaki kanan dh jalan tempang2..jari dh bend! satu not je dari tadi..dlm otak mcm ade ping pong kiri kanan..mcm makcik2 gospel kene rasuk lah kn..seram tau mende2 camni..sabar je lah..
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| omarjamaludin |
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| fReqZz wrote: | ahh..
bro Izzi and zubira pakar ni.
But a tips from the pro. I was talking to sham last times about how to really play the blues.
Dia jawab senang je. Ko minat ape? ko dengar la lagu dia hari2 24/7. Bila ko dah mimpi lick2 dia dalam tidur. Baru start praktis lick tu dengan gitar.
It does make sense u know as blues is the "learn the rules, then break the rules" type of genre.
2 cent. |
yep aku rasa tu masalah aku kot.. tak melayani dan belajar licks2 artis2 yg sedia ada hehe...
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| kakibiru |
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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emmm..blues.
Topik ni buat aku rasa bila telan air liur ..air liur aku rasa manis...sebab sedap topik ni.
Samaada ..apa yg aku tulis dan kongsi ni nanti releven ke tidak aku x tahu sebab Bro OMAR x cakap pulak..dia nak tambah solo dia jadi blues rock ke, country ke, fusion ke, jazzy ke..dan temponya perlahan ke, laju ke...but, syok dan manisnya air liur kat tekak aku, waktu menulis @ respon post ni sayang nak aku berhentikan & habiskan begitu aje.
so, aku sembang jela dan tulisla apa yg ada dalam kepala ni...
1) kena minat ( betul2 minat )
betula tu apa yg sham cakap. kalu setakat gitu-gitu je minat nye..maka gitu-gitu jela blues yang kluar. Apapun, xjadi kesalahan pun..belasah jela.
Cuma , kalu betul-betul nak main stail purist kenala layan muzik ni sampai mual, muntah, lebam satu badan.
kena layan pecahan blues ...bukan 12 bar aje. ( Bab yg inilah telinga boleh jadi tuli, perut jadi senak, mata terbeliak melayan perasaan muzik blues yang banyak cabang , byk mood, byk citer nye).
2) kena jadi bluesman.
Sebab apa tak ada istilah blues star? sebab bluesman bukan karektornya mcm rockstar. bab ini yg susah nak faham sebab ini melibatkan kesederhanaan yg berperingkat mengikut susun jalur mentaliti dan pembawakkan seseorg individu.
3) pilihan instrument.
Renung dlm2 pilihan instrument , pedals & amps. Nak rasa bogelnya anda memetik blues cuba la tele dulu sebelum pi ke strat , lp dan gitar-gitar seterusnya.
4) Rinngkas untuk releven dgn apa yg bro Omar tanya...mau bikin solo atas progression blues > yg utamanya..apa yg hendak anda ceritakan dalam solo tu. byk artikel yg aku himpun, kebanyakkan bluesman @ blues player cakap..xde apa yg susah dalam teknik main blues..kalu bende tu susah..x bluesla pada mereka.
5) Selalu anggapan stereotaip: siapa main blues kira masuk kategori Otai.
Kalu otai pun..tak semestinye bagus atau hebat. Apa yg Raggy tulis tu betul sangat dan bende tu dulula yg patut di gali , di kaji dan dimengertikan sedalam-dalamnye.
nak pandai main blues x susah, byk dengar lagu, tiru dan copy pelbagai licks x kurang dari 10 gitarist handalan, peruntukkan masa ikut tab blues licks yg ada..dalam 6 bulan ke 2 tahun ..gerenti handal punye..
tapi,
nak faham apa itu blues, mcmana nak kluarkan blues dari dalam badan sampai keluar pada tone jari bersama gabungan 101 mcm licks yg dipinjam dari legenda2 yang dah sedia ada maupun yg dah mati.. ini makan bertahun-tahun sebab itulah dalam dunia beribu mungkin hampir berjuta gitarist yg mengabdikan diri dia kepada muzik blues..tapi bila disenaraikan 10 dari padanya dah mati..dan cuma 10 lagi yang masih tinggal dan mungkin hanya hidup beberapa tahun aje lagi!
Sebelum aku kena kencing manis , cara paling mudah, paling bangsat untuk mendalami muzik blues terutamanya gitarist..belajarlah muzik ini sambil menyanyi. jangan terburu2 nak terus solo. Semakin banyak anda menghafal melodi lagu-lagu blues..semakin byk bunyian blues akan keluar dari petikan jari anda. Aku rasala.
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Bila baca balik , malu pulak...mcmla la aku tau sangat ..padahal biasa-biasa aje ...tapi sebab blues punye pasal ..kalu genre music lain x beranila pulak nak sentuh,
apapun....moga kita semua terus maju dan jaya..Yipiii!
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| radioflyer |
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | cara paling mudah, paling bangsat untuk mendalami muzik blues terutamanya gitarist..belajarlah muzik ini sambil menyanyi. jangan terburu2 nak terus solo. Semakin banyak anda menghafal melodi lagu-lagu blues..semakin byk bunyian blues akan keluar dari petikan jari anda |
bley pakai gk kata brobluefeetblues tu..
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| omarjamaludin |
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| IZZI wrote: | Hi otai2 semua,
Aku bukan lah blues expert sebab aku masih tergolong dalam player yg bergantung pada scale. Apa yg bro Raggy cakap tu memang betul tapi topik tu topik yg lebih tinggi dari advance. Soul memang penting tak kira kita main guitar, menyanyi, bercakap, snap gambar, menulis etc.. ia akan lebih memberi kesan.
Berbalik pada topik yg dibuka oleh otai Omar, apa yg aku buat biasanya ialah aku gabungkan beberapa pentatonic scale. Bila chord bertukar, scale tu pun bertukar sekali follow the current chord.
Sebagai contoh dalam blues progression A7-D7-E7, semasa dalam key A7, aku akan gabungkan A Pentatonic, C Pentatonic, D pentatonic dan G pentatonic. Aku tak main semua note tersebut cuma petik beberapa note saja. Kemudian bila chord bertukar ke D7, scale pun ikut bertukar D pentatonic, F pentatonic, G Pentatonic dan C pentatonic. Untuk key E7, semua scale pun bertukar ke E pentatonic, G pentatonic, A pentatonic dan D pentatonic. [ni ada satu contoh kat youtube => sini ]
Tapi cara ni lebih utk praktis scale dan mode dan untuk kepuasan dari segi teknikal. Kalau nak buat sesuatu yg lebih berkesan dan memberi makna, Raggy's statement should be applied. Zubira salah seorang advance player yg tegolong dalam non-technical player yg lebih bergantung pada feel dan soul. |
thx Izzi - i will checkout the youtube vid later skrg kat opis lagi he he
so yeah i know some guitarist like kenny wayne shepard where he said he does not know much bout scales...just ikut feeling je..
thx for the contribution..hopefully we all can learn more from each other
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